Home Staging Best Practices with Professional Home Stager Cathy Lee Cibelli

In today’s episode, I am interviewing Cathy Lee Cibelli.  Cathy Lee is the owner of C.L. Designs Home Staging in the East Bay area in Northern California. She is an active RESA (Real Estate Staging Association) member, an affiliate member of Women’s Council of Realtors, and the Contra Costa Association of Realtors. Cathy Lee served as RESA’s CA State President 2015-2020. She was the founder and Past President of the East Bay/ San Francisco Chapter of the International Home Staging Professionals, enjoys mentoring new stagers, and is dedicated to the powerful techniques of staging homes. Cathy Lee creates space, color, and clutter-free homes that can sell faster and for more money in today’s market.

Tune in to learn:

• Home staging best practices
• Important DOs and DON'Ts that can help or hurt your home sale
• How to prepare your house to sell to get TOP DOLLAR even if you don't want to make any updates to your property

You can find Cathy Lee on Instagram @cathy_lee_cibelli or visit her at  cldesignservices.com

If you’re in the process of selling your home or preparing your house to sell, this season of the Behind the Renovation podcast is perfect for you.  Over the next few weeks, I am interviewing industry professionals and related businesses for the Home Selling Success series to help you understand what home selling and buying look like in 2021 and how you can prepare yourself for the good, the bad and that elusive virtue called patience. 

Transcript

Alice: Good morning Cathy, how are you.

Cathy: It's wonderful to see you, I miss you. 

Alice: I know. Great to see you too. Oh my goodness. 

Cathy: Your social media, I can follow you and your daughter. 

Alice: Oh yes. Can you believe she's already 15 going on 16? She got her driver's permit. It's so scary. 

Cathy: She's so amazingly talented. Awesome. 

Alice: Thank you. Thank you. I am a proud mama. I know her grow up because we go way back to, I think we met back in 2003 ish. Right. When we. 

Cathy: I think it was 2002 

Alice: Could be, but we've been in this business for a long time and I'm just so amazed by your business right now. Like you're just going crazy. You're going gangbusters. Tell me a little bit about that. 

Cathy: It's never been this busy in all the years. I've had busy seasons and I can usually predict during the year when we're going to be really busy, but since the pandemic it's never been busier and I call it the panic business because the realtors are in a panic to list. The sellers are in a panic to list. The buyers are in a panic to buy. So I just call it the panic market.

Alice: Why do you think that is.

Cathy: The people that are moving and hiring me are leaving California, unfortunately, because they feel it's too expensive and it's very sad for me as a native Californian. and then the people who are buying are, leaving their high rises, their big, townhomes or condos because they feel their lives have changed forever. And they want a yard. They want a place to entertain outside where their children can play. and they feel like they just have to get ahead of it. Or they're the buyers feel like if they don't buy right away, they're going to lose out the sellers. Feel like if they don't sell right away, the market's going to drop. And so pretty much everyone I meet is panic.

Alice: Yeah, well, so it is not a myth that people actually do want to leave California when they say, cause you know, we've heard it all. Everybody wants to leave because it's too much. And I go, well, where are they because they're still all on eight 80 and six 80 and all the places that I'm on the road at that, like there, no. 

Cathy: I know you're right. But I hear the same states every time I'm staging is the homeowners here in the east bay are going to Idaho. They're going to Utah, they're going to Arizona and they're going to Texas. And I hear it over and over and over in Tennessee. 

Alice: See, Tennessee is a cool state I've been attending. I think it's a very, very cool state and it's up and coming. So to speak, you know, from a California perspective, it's up and coming. I'm sure they're like we're established, what are you talking about But I hear it flexes a lot also. I've not heard Idaho. That's an interesting one.

Cathy: I had many and also Wyoming. I forgot about that. I've, I've staged for some Google executives that have moved to Wyoming 

Alice: Really.

Cathy: Because they can live wherever they want and they're getting a lot of lands. 

Alice: Yeah, that's something that we don't offer a lot of here in California. That's for sure. So when people talk about acreage, I'm like, acreage, who wants to take care of that. 

Cathy: But I would say, Idaho is number one in my area, Idaho is the most popular state from here.

Alice: No, are these older people, are they younger folks or are they just kind of all over?

Cathy: All ages I staged for a young couple. They had a baby, she had a baby in her arms. She was pregnant. She needed to get the house on the market right away because she didn't want to be moving. When she was too far along, they were going to Idaho. The house sold right away. It was a very successful sale. And low on the hold, like two weeks later, the parents who are retired, can't stand the thought that they're not going to be near their grandchildren. So they listed and sold and moved it to all ages. 

Alice: Yeah, that's amazing. And I'm sure that the amount of houses they can get when they move anywhere outside of California is just, you know, there's no comparison. There really is not. 

Cathy: Well, they're getting a lot more land, but the prices have really gone up. And I've had a few clients that I've stayed for telling me that they had to pay 100 or 200,000 over asking to get the house they wanted out of state. The market's being driven up because so many people are leaving here. 

Alice: Everybody needs to just calm down. 

Cathy: I say, I'm not going anywhere. 

Alice: I know I see you on social. You're like another one sold, you know, you know this one's coming soon and it's like, non-stop, how are you even keeping up I don't even know. 

Cathy: I try to keep my sanity and have good help. And I've always said this ever since I've been in the business, staging is the F word flexible. It's the F-word. If we don't stay flexible, we'll lose our minds. 

Alice: Yeah. I can think of a couple of other F words, 

Cathy: But I get changes all the time. Like, yesterday I was trying to figure out how are we going to pick up three homes, but all three of them, we just staged and they're all cash and they're all closing, no contingencies, no inspections. And then yesterday I got the fourth one in the same situation. It has to be vacant by Friday because the escrow is cash and it's moving up and you know that all the papers are signed. So we had to add a fourth. And that's why I say flexible. I started at four-thirty today. 

Alice: I think the real word is foolish. No, I'm just kidding. But that's, I mean, that's fantastic. Another F word for you. So are you experiencing any pushback from clients that say that there's no need to stage because it's such a hot market Cause it, I mean, you're obviously keeping super busy, so it, are you getting any pushback at all?

Cathy: I get asked. Do you think that we can just do it vacant or do you think we can just do it as is and I always tell them the same thing? Absolutely. Your house will sell. You just will never know what it would have sold for if you had staged. So statistics showed that it's going to sell for more money and it's going to sell faster. So this great investment, this big asset that you have here, you want it to look the best it possibly can, so you can get the most money for it. Right. and I mean, I don't get every, every preview that I go on, some people are even still doing virtual, which I don't believe in at all. 

Alice: So explain what virtual staging is. So for the folks that don't understand what you're referring to. 

Cathy: The professional photographers here are offering virtual staging where they just place photos of furniture in the rooms and they have a package price per room. And there are still, you know, there are still homeowners that are doing it. not as much. when we were, we were in a shelter in place, I saw it more, but it is still happening. and I did recently just have an agent that I've staged for four years. Tell me, this is the date I need. If you cannot do it, I'm going to virtual. And of course, we worked at home. 

Alice: So I think what people have to understand is virtual is a completely different thing because when you actually walk through the doors of that property, you're not able to see what it is that you see in photos. And I think sometimes a lot of people feel duped by that whole process. 

Cathy: I totally agree. Because they look online before they make up their decision, whether they're going to go or not. And then when they get there and open the door and it's all vacant, it's, it's a bait and switch. And I can always tell when it's virtual, I can, I can tell because the look is virtual. I mean, yeah, the legs on the tables, don't sit on the floor, but most, most buyers that are all looking online, don't know, and then they get over there and they're so disappointed. So I know what they see and that's why it needs to look nice when they go in. 

Alice: So now what is it that you are advising clients to do in preparation for putting their house on the market. So before you even get there to do your magic, which it truly is, it's that icing on the cake, it's the, you know, that is the finishing touch. But before you get to that point of bringing in all that, what do you advise your clients to do.

Cathy: First is curb appeal. Even if we just are adding bark and trimming trees, it's really important that the yard and the front of the house look nice. And if they haven't painted in a few years, they need to paint the exterior. And it's, it's hard to find help right now because everyone is so busy, but it's very important to catch them at the curb. And then inside, I've staged many dated homes, but it's really all about cleanliness. you don't have to update. It's great if you update your kitchen and your baths and your flooring, but if you don't have the funds, it's all about being clean, cleaning the windows, the appliances, making sure everything works and, and professional photos. it doesn't work for the realtor to use his phone. You have to have wide angles. You have to have, lighting added where, where it's needed. So I always recommend those things. Those are my key things. If, if there isn't money to update, if there is money for updating it recommend paint, flooring, bathrooms, kitchens, kitchens are really important. 

Alice: Well, all the more reason I think that pre-planning is so key, especially during this time when, like you said, people are in a panic, everybody's in a rush, everybody's afraid that whole FOMO thing is a real thing. And it really is. And so preparing for that because there is, so everybody is trying to do the same thing you are. So it's kind of like when, during the beginning of COVID, when people are standing in line at the grocery store just to get in, not even to buy anything, just to actually get toilet paper, it's so insane. I had no idea what was running out of toilet paper. This is happening because I don't watch the news, which is a really good sanity thing for me, but yeah, but preparing yourself for getting the materials as you're able to get the materials and booking your, trades as early as possible and getting, and being flexible, right. Because when they're available, you need to be available, just have them come in, do a little something and then have them come back and it, if that's necessary, you know, so another word of the day, the day, but yes, we should definitely be a little more proactive as far as that's concerned now. Are you finding that people are cutting corners, in the home selling process right now because of the current situation that we're in?

Cathy: Yeah, some, it just depends on the homeowner. It depends on the realtor too. I ha I worked with some really incredible, agents that really want their homeowners to get the most with the sale of the house. So they will make sure that they're not cutting corners. because in the end you're going to get four, if you do it right. I find, I find waiting a day or two or a week to list the house is not that big of an issue, but I have clients that are like, oh no, we can't do it next week. We have to get on the market tomorrow, which is, you know, like I say, it's a panic market. 

Alice: But I, I feel like I've been hearing this a lot and because of where we're located, people I've been hearing that for the last, nearly 20 years. Like you get a phone call, oh, when are you planning on going on market. You know, it's Tuesday, they're calling, they're like this weekend. You're like, that's like in four days. 

Cathy: I got there this morning and they want staging next week. And they have at least two weeks of just decluttering, but they, oh, no, no, no. We need to get the house. We already bought our house. You know, we have to be on the market. I'm like, okay, you do understand that we're not going to move all this stuff outta here. 

Alice: Right. So how much time are you dedicated Like this is going to be your full-time job, 18 hours a day for the next week, but for the next three days, technically whatever the case may be. the reason I ask what I asked is I was doing some MLS searches just for the heck of it, because I'm crazy like that. And I was just noticing there's some very interesting stagings out there. And I say stagings with quotes. because first let me ask you this. Can you explain to people what the differences between professional home staging and a DIY home staging And I'm sorry to put you on the spot. It's a loaded question for sure. 

Cathy: So many answers. There's a lot of different answers to that, but I think that my, my first and foremost answer would be the difference between do it yourself and hiring someone, is that when it is your own home, it's just too hard to detach. It's too hard to take your personal things out. And that's the difference between hiring a professional that isn't, that is truly turning their home into a product and is not at all personally involved with the family. It's just, it's just a huge, huge difference.

Alice: For sure. Now what about realtors who say, you know, I've got a flare for this, I've got a knack for this. I can do it for you. What are your thoughts on that.

Cathy: I do know a few realtors that have taken professional training and do stage besides this being the agent and they, these, the few that I do know, do a very nice job, but most of them, don't take the time to get educated. And so they don't know the simple, the simple rules that we use, like, if the front of the house is facing a busy street and the windows to the bedroom are facing that you don't make that a children's bedroom. You make that an office because no, one's going to want their children in a bedroom. That's on a busy street on the front window. Or if the bedroom has a sliding door in it, you don't want your children in there because it's too easy to break in. So you make that an office. These are the things that many realtors don't know. 

Cathy: You need to get hurry to get it on the market. 

Alice: Well, and I understand, you know, sometimes you can't find the people that you need to help you create the end product that you need to get on the market in the timeframe that you needed done. Right So know something is better than nothing. I totally understand that, but it has been an interesting, journey through the worldwide web, looking at some of these MLS, photos of things that I'm like, what in the world is happening. there was one very interesting one where it was a dining room and it was four full sized dining chairs, but a tiny little bistro table in the middle. I was like, oh my God. 

Cathy: I've seen that. And I've also seen some agents that will put the bedding down on the floor, but the bed isn't there and they put the shams and the euros against the wall and they just put to make it look like this is a bedroom. This is where you would put the bed. eThey don't have the bed. They're not even in, I don't use their mattresses, but they don't even have an air mattress. They just have the beddings sitting on the floor. 

Alice: That was just odd.

Cathy: I've seen it a few times. 

Alice: I think I, in that case, I'd rather have it vacant than to have like, like a ghost bed. 

Cathy: I agree. I totally agree. I, rather than a vignette, I think it's better to have the room vacant because it almost appears like, well, they didn't really have the money to stage properly, so they must be hurting. So let's give them a low offer. 

Alice: I think everything, not just your first impression, but the overall impression takes you to that final number that somebody is willing to pay for the property. And in a current market like this, where there's multiple offer situations, that's what kind of drives it is the emotional attachment that a potential home buyer has to what they visually see in front of them. Right. So as you're walking from room to room, you don't want to walk in and go, oh my God, this is so cool. And then you walk into a bedroom with fricking bedding on the floor. I don't even know what I would do with it. 

Cathy: Another thing that I've seen realtors do that are doing their own staging is in a living room where you would have, occasional chairs. They just put a couple of baskets on the floor and stick some pillows in them so that you would envision, oh, this is where I would put the chairs while I'm watching TV, which I just think is really a terrible look. But I see it a lot. 

Alice: I would think like, oh, I think they forgot something.

Cathy: You almost feel like you're going to trip over the baskets. If you walk in the room. 

Alice: I, I, okay. Whoever's doing all of these things. Please stop. Like, if you're going to attempt to do this, get some professional training, understanding the true principles behind home staging and what makes sense, because it's bizarre to us. It's probably bizarre to all the potential buyers out there because you're not bullying anybody.

Cathy: You're not. Not at all. 

Alice: So, okay. Let's just say you didn't have the budget. You couldn't find a state or whatever the case may be. What are some things that you could do for yourself If you had to do some DIY staging, let's give them a couple of good ideas, or maybe not to do, we've already kind of clarify. Don't pretend there's a bed which doesn't exist and let's not pretend they're chairs that you need a, you know, random pillow to hang out with. 

Cathy: So I, I don't recommend this, but, there, it just in this last month, two realtors that I stage for regularly for years needed to get homes on the market. And literally like gave me a day notice two days notice, and there was just no way. And they actually moved their own furniture into the homes. 

Alice: The realtor's furniture into the home. 

Cathy: And I don't recommend that either cause I followed up, you know, the next day or the day after, you know, I think we can fit you in next week. Oh, we just rented a truck and we took all of our furniture from our home and we just used it. Do you need help with artwork Do you need help with placing Oh no, we're fine. I don't recommend that either. I just think it's better to just have a vacant home and have professional photos and make sure it's clean. 

Alice: Well, I think cleanliness is obviously a subjective thing. One person's clean is another person's oh my Lord what were you thinking. I've seen that. And I've seen, I've had experienced with people who negotiate profusely with a cleaner on the pricing of a house cleaning. My advice has always been, listen, not everybody's a good house cleaner and that's okay. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses, hire out your weaknesses. It is worth every penny for someone to scrub your house from top to bottom to make it shy. So like you said, even if it's a dated property, if it's clean, at least you feel like, oh, but it's a very well kept home. You know, I've seen that with, renovations that I've done very dated, very 1950s or 1960s, but it was clean and it was well maintained and that's more acceptable than, you know, an updated dirty house. That's for sure. I mean, you, you've got to have the combination of things.

Cathy: And the garage is a very important room, especially for men and too many times. I see you know, agents and their homeowners just throwing everything in the garage and they think that's the solution. Just get it all out. Put it in the garage. Well, when a prospective buyer sees that, all they think of is, well, they don't really have pride in their homeownership here. They just tried to make it look like they do inside, but all this junk just got moved up. Can't even walk out there and that's not a good idea. That's not a good solution. 

Alice: I agree. 100%. It's so easy. Now they have storage services that come to your door. They can load it up for you or you could load it up. They can remove it off-site and bring it back when you're ready or take it to your new location. There are so many options rather than just sticking it in your garage. 

Cathy: Just piling it all in the garage. 

Alice: Yeah. I remember once upon a time, I used to say, okay, at least if you're going to put stuff in the garage, keep it nice and neat, you know, so that people can then create a pathway so people can walk to things. And when you have inspections and make sure they can have access to like your electric panel and your water heater and things like that. Cause if you have so much stuff in there and you can't even get those things done, then you're, you're, you're creating more problems. But I agree. I think with the pandemic, the garage is really a space that is even more important than it once was because of its extra space. 

Cathy: Oh, I've seen many men working in the garage, they've set up their offices in the garage because their children were in the house doing virtual learning and it was too hard for them to work in the house. So they've set up offices in the garage. The garage is really an important room for the men.

Alice: What's an important room for a woman too, because from speaking up from someone who redid her garage last year after, I don't know how many years, every day rolling into a dungeon, ugly gross garage. So finally have the walls finished and proper lighting. And we eat before. So now half is the gym and the other half, I only have one car. So we have one car in there, but it's so much more inviting to have the garage door roll up and you can drive in and you feel like, oh, this is nice. Not like you can't wait to get out of here. 

Cathy: Right. Exactly. 

Alice: Yes. And the pandemic really did cause a lot of people to utilize spaces in a different way, because you just needed a little bit of separation from the other members of the family, which leads me to, are you seeing more trends Are clients asking for certain things Are you staging things in a different way based on what's happened over the last year.

Cathy: We definitely are staging, always a learning center in every home, even though the pandemic rules have lifted and children are going back to school, live at school, we're still always putting, we're always putting a desk somewhere in a house and in children's bedrooms when we stage them, we're putting small writing desks. Just because people are still nervous that things are going to shut down again. And so we try to show them that the space is there. It's very important. 

Alice: Well, and even if it's not a situation where they have to do school from home, they still need a place to do homework and things like that or do their craft. So it's nice to be able to see that this is something that you can do in this area. You have space for that.

Cathy: Have space for it. Right.

Alice: What would you say are the most important rooms to stage. Firstly, I think the whole house needs to be done, but you know, what are some of the key spaces that need to be done.

Cathy: Depends on the floor plan. But I always feel like when you come in, that is the first impression. So you always want the main rooms when you come in. and it's okay if you don't want to do all the bedrooms, but I think it's really important to do the master bedroom because that's who is ever buying. That's where they're going to be sleeping. So, so the living room, dining room, family, room, kitchen, kitchen, eating area, everyone always wants to know where are we going to eat breakfast. So I think it's really important. You put a dining area in the kitchen if there's space for it because not everyone wants to sit in a formal dining room and eat. So I always try to answer two questions. Where are we going to eat breakfast And where are we going to watch TV and now it's and where are we going to learn where to work.

Alice: When I go to escape from everybody. What are your thoughts on bathrooms left unstaged?

Cathy: I do bathrooms and kitchen counters complimentary because I feel they're very important. So if the house, all the bedrooms are not staged, I still do all the bathrooms. I don't charge for them. I just feel that it looks so much nicer. I think it's important to stage them in many times. They're not updated. Maybe the master bath is updated, but the other bathrooms are not so always try to put something, some artwork and something on the counters it's so minor, but it makes them, it makes a big impression. 

Alice: I always used to say kitchens and bathrooms never look good naked. Yeah. Even an updated one. It's kind of just blah with, you know, you're sinking your countertop and there's a toilet and the toilet. Yeah. I mean, you add a couple of towels and you know, some floral, whatever, a couple of decorative accessories and it completely transforms the space. And like you said, it's so yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then it, it, it actually brings some personality. I think that's the main thing that staging does is adds personality to a space. Because even if you have a completely renovated home that has really nice finishes, it lacks some personality, you know, if it's vacant and there's nothing on the walls, there are no furnishings, nothing. You need some color. You need to use some, some true personnel ancient space so that it comes alive and then people can envision, oh yeah, I like this. And I can see myself doing this and oh, look, now we can lead you to the backyard and you can entertain back there. Like there are just so many more options. And that's why model homes are so important and new developments and they spend a lot of money on it. 

Cathy: It brings life to the house. 

Alice: Yes. Yes. 

Cathy: a 

Alice: A lot of people say they don't have the creativity and that's true because you even, you see it all the time where they fall in love with whether it's a staged property or a model home that has been decorated. And then they get the real thing and they're like, oh my God. Now, what do I do?

Cathy: What do I do, right. 

Alice: It's all empty walls, empty rooms. And you're left to create those spaces that you thought you were getting, but it doesn't come with the price tag. 

Cathy: Exactly. 

Alice: What are some, what is some advice for, I'm sure you work a lot and I don't even know if you have time for this, but you, you work obviously with, sellers getting their house ready to sell. Now, what about once they get to their new property. Do you work a lot with, homeowners in that respect?

Cathy: I refer, I used to do a redesign that I refer it now because our staging is so busy, but, I will do paint color consultations, but I don't have the time for anything else. And I made sure that the person that I refer to is an outstanding person with really good ethics, very honest, very personable. And I've always gotten raves, never any negative, because I have to be, I have to have a life too, and I just realized I couldn't do it all. I imagine the staging business is just enough for me right now. 

Alice: I understand. At some point you got to say, listen, I got to sleep. I need to eat. I need to see my family on occasion. 

Cathy: Right, exactly. 

Alice: Thank you very much for all this information. I think it's very helpful. is there anything that you can tell me that happened over the last year that I could never have imagined that this would have some crazy stories?

Cathy: I staged a home for a lovely elderly couple that did not want to have stairs anymore in their home. They wanted a single story and they actually purchased the home and went to it. But the house that I was staging, their home that they had been in for over 50 years had never had one update. And I'm talking wallpaper from all those years ago. and a kitchen, like I've never seen before. That's how old it was. I've never seen a kitchen like this and the wallpaper in there and the wallpaper in the bathrooms. And it was the old yellow Bestos tile, one bathroom. And then the master bath was black tile, really old black tile. And the wallpaper was pink and white. 

Alice: Oh my.

Cathy: They were not going to change a light fixture. They were not going to do anything, but we cleaned that house. I mean, clean it. And then I did my very best to stage every room. And when it was listed, I thought, wow, that's pretty aggressive. The price it sold for 600,000 over asking, it was my biggest surprise that I've ever had in my business, 600. 

Alice: Okay. Now I can get a visual of this property. 

Cathy: Well, I can show you, I can show, I can send you, I'll send you on your, your phone. I'll send you some of the wallpaper that I was doing.

Alice: Yes send it to me, we'll include in the video version of this podcast. And I think everybody who is interested in. 

Cathy: Just the, light fixture when you opened the front door, the light fixture hanging down. Oh my goodness. But we stayed with it. We made it work.

Alice: Because you are a true professional and you know how to take what you've got and work with it. 

Cathy: I did my best in the, in the living room, there was a fireplace, very old fireplace. And on the sidewalls, I couldn't even hang artwork because it was some sort of a, a plaster. it was textured and it was dark brown with gold flecks in it. And I couldn't hang artwork on it. So I used these gigantic tall lamps that were the color of the walls to distract because like two tables on each side of the fireplace and in these big lamps too. Cause I couldn't hang artwork. You couldn't get a nail in the wall. 

Alice: Okay. I've never tried to hang wall and laugh and plaster. That is a hole that requires a hand-holding tutorial. What is happening? And then the walls are crumbling. You're like, oh my God. Oh my goodness. Well, that's amazing. What, well, what was their biggest temporize 

Cathy: This last year It really was. 

Alice: I can imagine. What was the homeowners reaction to their sale.

Cathy: Absolutely thrilled. The realtors so happy when he told me and he texts me what he got for the house. He must have put, you know, three times. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Alice: I mean, that was probably the story of the year for everybody. So if you're truly not even willing to do anything, you invest in professional home staging, invest in deep cleaning your property so that it shows in the best light possible, like do not cut corners, do not cheap out because listen, they got $600,000 on a day-to-day like beyond dated property as I was. I can't wait to see it.

Cathy: The whole house is a redo. I will say that they did take my advice about curve appeal. The front did not have a lawn and it had a tree trunk stuck in the middle of the lawn area that was Sada. And I convinced them to put in a lawn and plant a tree, take that big stump out and plant a tree. Even though that tree was much smaller than all the other trees surrounding the home, it still looked really nice. And they did paint the front of their house, a very dark charcoal and it had red bricks. So the front of the house looked beautiful when you drove by, you wanted to go in and see it. So they didn't do that. 

Alice: Well, that's awesome. Yeah, that's, that's something that I think not enough emphasis is put on that because we focus so much on the interior. Like what does the inside of the house look like But, and this past year has been a little bit challenging because you're not seeing the properties in person as much as you would like to. But I mean, if you're remotely interested in it, probably you're going to drive by, you're going to do some sleuthing regardless. And you're going to see is the curb appeal. And I know for myself if I drive up and it's like, oh, that's cute. I'm not interested from the, from the curb all the way through the property throughout the, the exterior in the backyard everywhere. Like the whole package is important. But yes, the first thing they're going to see is the curb appeal. So put an effort into that. 

Cathy: Yeah. Just taking the tree trunk out. Cause it was dead. It was a dead trunk and digging that out and putting a little tree in with some nice black bark and then putting it along, just made a huge difference. 

Alice: Yeah. Well, I think people really have to understand that this is an investment in your investment, right. And the biggest return ever. Right. Because how often would you be able to get the amount of return on any kind of investment like you do with real estate Very rarely do you ever, so putting forth some effort, investing some money so that you can then get to the result that you really want is so important. so don't rush things. If you don't have to really, if you waited a week, your house is still going to sell. It's not, nothing is happening in a week that you couldn't wait for. go see enough buyers out there that your, your who knows you might even get more if you, you know, waited a week and actually did a little bit more to your property to get it ready and properly orchid 

Cathy: And investment will payback. Yes, absolutely. 

Alice: Well, thank you so much, Cathy. This is so much fun. I, I, I, you have to send me those pictures. I have to share to everybody because I'm dying to see it. 

Cathy: I'll send you the pictures, the master bath. I just didn't even know what to put in there with the pink and wallpaper and the black tile, but it all worked in the end. It worked 

Alice: The $600,000 about asking.

Cathy: The kitchen was just like nothing I've ever seen before. And I, because of the wallpaper out, all I hung was a clock. That was all I did because I just couldn't. 

Alice: What was the, what was the actual list price of this property.

Cathy: It was a million, four, I believe. And it's sold for over 2 million. 

Alice: And how big is the house it sounds like it probably was kind of small. 

Cathy: it was a 1, 2, 3 bedroom, two bath. 

Alice: So for everybody listening, this is California numbers. So don't. for other parts of the country for 2 billion, you can buy yourself a three-bedroom, two bath, fixer-upper. Have a clean slate to work with. So my goodness. All right, well thank you so much, Cathy. I w it was so fun to catch up with you. This was so much fun. I appreciate your time.

Cathy: Just to hear from you. I admire your work and I just love everything you do. So thanks for asking me.