Choosing Paint Colors for Your Home | Interview with Color Expert Shannon Kaye

In today’s episode,I am interviewing Shannon Kaye who is the Color Marketing Manager for Kelly Moore Paint.  We discuss all things paint and the biggest roadblock homeowners have around choosing paint colors for their homes.  We dive into how to choose colors when selling a home and living in a home. Tune in to learn about different paint sheens and mistakes to avoid with touch-up paint, secrets behind the color of the year, color trends, and so much more. 

As an entrepreneur and independent artist for most of her career, Shannon has enjoyed opportunities to create DIY paint, color, and design marketing content for the Home Improvement industry through a variety of platforms. As an independent artist, Shannon built Finishing Touches, a thriving decorative finishes, and wall design business. In 2006, Shannon was scouted to host Fresh Coat, a makeover show on DIY Network, which led to several hosting opportunities and special appearances on national television. 

As Color Marketing Manager at Kelly-Moore Paints she helped create their first e-commerce platform, www.kellymooreshop.com, and continue to build their online presence by art directing, writing articles, creating product and color content, and working to develop consumer-focused color tool products.

You can find Shannon on Instagram @shannonkayecolor or visit her at shannonkaye.com  You can also find Kelly Moore Paint @kellymoorepaint or visit their new e-commerce site at KellyMooreshop.com or the parent site at KellyMoore.com

Transcript

Alice: Good morning, Shannon. Welcome to the podcast. It's so fun. So can you please just share a little bit about your background so that everybody understands who you are and what you're all about because I think it's really cool? 

Shannon: Thank you. Yeah, of course. You know, it's funny. Cause one of the question ideas that you sent me was like, what's the wildest thing that's happened to you or in the industry or whatever. And I was like, you know, the paint industry isn't that wild, but like a career path.

Shannon: I started studying interior design at an art school in San Francisco. And that was because I was looking for a path and my mom decorated our house on a shoestring budget, you know, and I loved just decorating, but it was during this time in art school, I was studying cheer design. I had taken a decorative painting class. I was working at shabby chic, the original. Yeah. and a decorative painter came into the shop and I really just hit it off with her. And I was like, what is this lady do Because she's got her own business. She gets to be creative. Her dog comes to work with her. And I just asked her if I could apprentice, I actually asked if I could help her for a day or two. I was just like, let me just come. You don't have to pay me. 

Shannon: I just want to see what you do. And I ended up apprenticing with her for about a year and a half and fell madly in love with paint, color light. You know, it was like, I love interior design, but what I really love is light and surface and color. So then I went out on my own, creating my own decorative painting and color consulting business, and did that for quite a while. Built-up a really nice clientele of private clients and then also worked with a lot of interior designers and then kind of out of the blue, I got recruited to host a TV show. Ooh, fun. Yeah. It was on the DIY network. These were the early make-over days. Those were the best days though, just Renegade. Right, We're all trying stuff we'd never done before. And it was, it was called fresh coat, like a fresh coat of paint and for the, do it yourself an audience. 

Shannon: So we'd makeover one room using only paint. And then I would have to teach them how to do whatever it was that we were doing. So I had to really like pair down, you know, like the kind of skills and techniques I'd been honing so that a homeowner could be successful. The first time they painted a dresser or the first time they did a zigzag pattern on a curtain. I also had to paint all kinds of stuff. I had never painted before, like a lampshade, like curtains, like the lamp itself, like all of these crazy things. but that's where I really realized that I love not just being in people's homes, but empowering people to be creative and expressive in their own homes. And I had this amazing platform for that. And from there, my clients became companies, corporate clients. So they would ask me to paint like Armstrong ceiling tiles had me do some videos where I would do simple finishes on their acoustic ceiling tiles. 

Shannon: So, you know, they're like, oh, a white acoustic material, but we can paint to look like tin ceilings. Ooh, really easy and fun. And so I was starting to do projects like that. I worked with shoreline painting tools. I was their spokesperson for a couple of years. They were, they were awesome, super fun company to work with. And they're like brushes and rollers. And so I, I mean, that's, that's my pallet right there. So I could just create all kinds of projects for them. And during that time I realized that it's really fun being in front of the camera and expressing my passion for color and also for people, but behind the camera. And you know this behind the camera, you have to figure out how to tell the story. Yes. I found that to be so creative Alice, that I just started reaching out to these companies, or if they came to me saying, we want to do videos, I'd say I can, but I want to be the crew. 

Shannon: Let me hire the crew. Let me write the script. Let me scout the rooms where me create the projects. And then really the hosting and the front was sort of the last little bit. It was the last thing on the to-do list. The front of it was the, or the, the first part of the project was how can I empower people What projects will do that What colors look great on camera so it was during that time that Kelly Moore called me and asked me to do some videos for them. I grew up on Kelly Moore paints. I mean, that's all we use growing. And so I knew the paint and the company really well. I did the videos, we had a great time. And then a couple of years after that, they asked if I'd be their color marketing manager. And I was like another wild turn. I haven't had a corporate job since I was like 24. 

Shannon: It seemed like, again, it's another shift. Like it was, you know, another platform where I could express the things that I naturally do anyway. And so now I just consider Kelly more like my only client, you know, I get up every morning thinking like, all right, am I going to move these guys forward Because they have a great product. They can serve all kinds of markets with products and I can help them do that with all this experience that I've kind of gathered over my like crazy windy. 

Alice: Absolutely. That's awesome. I love that. Now, how long have you been with Kelly-Moore It's been about two and a half years. Okay. So explain to us what it is your role is with the company, because I have, so I have so many questions, but I want to get to the basics before we dive into things. Cause I love more, I've been using Kelly Moore for the last 20 years with client projects, but you know, even prior to that, especially with my own homes, I mean, I know here in the bay area, they're very popular, so yeah. Please tell me what it is that you do as a marketing manager for the company. 

Shannon: I will. So first of all, Kelly Moore actually started in the bay area in 1946. That makes sense. Yeah. That's why we're so well known people here think we're a national brand and for a long time, we weren't, just this past year we launched our first, e-commerce site where you can shop online now for Kelly Moore paints at Kelly-Moore shop.com and we ship all around the country now. So even if we don't have stores, you can buy our paint. And that's been really fun because you kind of start to see who has lived in the bay area, like in South Carolina

Shannon: And they're ordering our paint. You know, that's really fun. Like the brand way. That's really fun, that's been a surprise. 

Alice: That's a good thing. Cause I think a lot of people have moved away from the bay area, especially over the past year or so. so seeing that from a corporate perspective, like the buying trends as people migrate to other parts of the country, but still being loyal to the brand, that that's kind of a cool revelation. 

Shannon: Yeah. It was a, it was an unexpected, you know, surprise. We loved it. but so basically my job is to really, I'm coming into a kind of reimagine all of our color marketing. And so color marketing is everything from the display racks in the stores that have all the little chips in them to the brochures that you get to the social media, to our website, anything that has to do with promoting our colors and helping people choose colors, that's what I'm doing. and you know, Kelly Moore is, I mean every painting contractor I know uses and loves Kelly Moore, you know, we've been the painters paint store from the beginning and it's, it's most of our market is actors. So we haven't, as a company spent a lot of time on the softer prettier side, which is the side that the homeowners need yes. Feel comfortable about buying our pain. so luckily we have contractors that will only use our pain and they will explain to homeowners why when they're painting someone's house. But I get this really unique opportunity to show my own house, which is in like renovation mode. Right now. 

Alice: My little lifestyle. 

Shannon: And then just to help people choose colors, it's kind of the biggest overwhelm. It's the biggest roadblock to painting. What color do I choose And then people are so scared of it. And I try to just take that fear away and help people feel confident about the colors that they already love. And just where and how to put them in their house. 

Alice: Yeah. So that's interesting because I used to always say my little tagline was like, color is your best friend. And it really is. And I love the transformation that paint affords for spaces. If you have zero budget like if you literally were on the tightest budget, painting makes the biggest difference. 

Shannon: Fastest way to transform your space. Yes. So 

Alice: Yeah. Yes. I mean, as you were mentioning before you had the opportunity to paint various surfaces, like paint, transforms. 

Shannon: Everything.

Alice: Not just wall ceilings, there are doors, there's, you know, cabinet tree there's I mean, people are painting tile. There's like anything and everything you can think of can be painted and made to look new again and fresh and cool. I mean, you can look something really dated and make it look like a million bucks, which yeah, I think it's and people are so creative, more creative than I can even imagine. Like I've seen what people can do with radial furniture. And you're like, oh my God, that looks so good. I would pay thousands of dollars for it.

Shannon: That's the fun part of it. Yeah. You know, and especially for me, like when I was doing the DIY show, even now, like, you know, we have people tag us on Instagram when they've used our paint in a project and it's like, you know, people are always like, oh, you're so creative Shannon, but this is all I do every day. So I hope I'm good at it. But for people that haven't done it before this is like a creative burst of energy and they do these cool projects and you're like, I never would've thought of that. That's your creativity. Something amazing. I love seeing that, just like come out of people and the joy that comes from trying something and having it work. 

Alice: I agree. Now I will say, even for someone like me who does this for a living, I was so hesitant to paint my fireplace wall, which I finally did last November, December. And I am so in love with that wall. I'm so mad at myself as, as they did, because I wasn't in the car to do a full renovation, but it had this ugly, like brick red, six by six tile around the fireplace around. And then it's just kind of, it was always an eyesore and it never looked good. And I finally painted the whole thing. Dark charcoal and oh my gosh, the elevation that place. Yeah. I'm just like, dude, everybody needs to just pull her for them. 

Shannon: I know. Okay. So then my story is like the opposite. Okay. I've always had color on my walls. Every house, the idea of living in a white wall, just that seemed I couldn't figure that out for me than just this past November, we moved to this house. I was in San Francisco is in city. Now I'm in the country be true. The country. That's really interesting where the foothills were in the Sierra foothills. We're in a little, gold mining town called Sutter Creek and all around us. Like there's, there's nothing blocking my view here of rolling Hills, Oak trees, classic California landscape, it's all around us. And the house is cinderblock with steel windows. So it's really unusual. it has a lot of, but that's why I loved it. It was so interesting and different, but there is so much color like bursting in from the outside. 

Shannon: Our sky is not blocked. It's just big and beautiful. And so when I came into this space, it had dark green linoleum and torn carpets. The walls were kind of a beigey color and it just felt so dark and dreary. And I just thought, you know, I got to take all the color out of this so that I can bring, let the color come in from the outside, bring in colorful pieces. So, you know, the yellow curtains and other things will start coming in. I still have a dark green wall behind my bed and we just painted our laundry room door, like a really beautiful color called cloudy day. It's really pretty powdery color. So there'll be a lot of color in here, but I was like, am I actually gonna paint my walls white Yeah, that was my like I had to get over it that little fear. Like you sit for your fireplace and just, you just do it. And then you always, your gut is always right. And when you do it, you're just like, Ugh, thank you next time sooner. 

Alice: Absolutely. Well, I love this. let's talk about the color because I think as you said, people have a fear of color and I mean, even in coaching, like my best friend through her painting her place, I'm like, oh my God, it's so boring. It's just the seat of begs. You need to like put some cooler in here. She goes, but I don't like it. I'm like, but what if you love it Yeah. Okay. So let's just say you make a mistake. What's the worst thing that can happen. Yup. Paint over it. Right. 

Shannon: I always say that it's only painted. I don't think people are actually like if you narrow like boil it down. I don't think they're actually afraid of color. They're afraid of making a mistake, take that afraid of making a mistake. but you know, again, to your point, the cheapest mistake you can fix is painted. And often you can do it yourself. It's not the funniest thing to do, but it is gratifying and it's immediate, you know I think people really just worry about choosing the right colors and when it comes to houses, it's funny because of course on the outside, people are concerned about their neighbors and what people will think when they drive by. But it's really interesting to me that people are just as worried about that on the inside because inside cause it is only where we live.

Shannon: You know, and our friends are going to come in for sure and our family, but I find it really fascinating how insecure people are about color and anything else for the inside of their homes. 

Alice: Well, I think people do worry so much about what other people think that it stops them from doing what they really, really want. one of the things that we talk a lot about in-home selling is to neutralize things, right Which makes a lot of sense for the potential buyer. But I know what I think about this. I'm gonna let you speak to what your, for our car, but when you're living in the home for you, whether it's for a year or two years, 20 years, how should you approach color within your own home 

Shannon: That's a really good question. And there are, those are two totally different intentions, right Selling the house is completely different than living in the house. for sure, I feel like everyone operates in a little different way for, you know, my mom used to say, like if you make your bed in the morning, then like 70% of your room is clean. 

Shannon: So if all you do is make your bed, you'd feel better about your school. And if you feel good about your space, then it's easier to enjoy your day and easier to go out into the world because you felt good inside. And when you come back, you have so many come back to that feels good. And that's why my mom painted our rooms. You know, we moved around quite a bit when we were young, but every time we'd move into a new house, the first thing she would do is paint the kids' rooms and bright, fun colors and, you know, make bedspreads or little things us. And so I do feel that I when I feel good here, it's easier for me to operate in every way. And I think some people, we get a little bit, I don't know what the word is. It's like you to kind of just getting used to living in a way that doesn't quite elevate you. 

Alice: Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I think sometimes you hear people listen to the noise, a little too much, all this like conversation that people have. And then they forget to like own who they are. And then this is your space for the time that you're living in it. Right. Lots of fees is like, listen when it's time to sell your home. Absolutely. We should reduce the number of colors in the property because you're trying to market a product. It's no longer ignore home, but when you're moving there, you should absolutely love everything about it. You want to paint some crazy color, knock yourself out. But when it's time to sell, it may not translate well to the potential fires. So, you know, and buyers love the smell of fresh paint. They just love it, it's like the effort DJ ACA is selling right. Needs to know like, okay, this is fresh, clean paint. And whether or not they keep it irrelevant, right The point is your doing what you need to do to get your house sold while you're living in. And I think sometimes people tend to neutralize a little too much to the point where they have zero personality that gets boring for everyday life. 

Shannon: But you know, it's a new beginning. And so that new smell paint is like the possibilities, right It's like, wow, what am I going to do in here Where am I going to put the bed You know, will our curtains work in here too Just the sofa fit. And it's fun. It's fun to think about that. then once you get in, it is a little daunting because houses are bigger projects than, you know, like building birdhouses, right. It's a big project. And I think people get overwhelmed. Maybe they get a little tired. They realize how many decisions you have to make because you have to make a lot of decisions. 

Shannon: Just to do a bathroom, everything from drawer poles to drains, like it's a lot of decisions for tiny little space. and also, so then I think people kind of pull back from their dream, their vision, and they suddenly don't trust themselves. But you know, I always say like, this is a great example. We're talking about color trends right now. I have these like amazing, this amazing group color hive that me and other companies, we all work together and we have a color marketing group, which is an amazing, professional, like, color group that we all, that's all we do. Let's talk about it. It's like amazing. But, so we're talking trends right now for next year and the following and there's this kind of light yellow that's emerging. Hm. And you know, I love yellow, but I don't like this yellow. Okay. It's not, I don't think people feel good in it looked good in it all the time, you know But so I have to sit there and think what I make this my color of the year, even if I don't want to live in it, you know what I mean like it's an emerging color with.

Shannon: So you kind of have to do the opposite when you are coming into your home. Don't worry about what the color of the year is. Don't worry about everyone saying you have to have a black wall in your bedroom. You have to really just think about what colors do I wear, what colors am I always attracted to Whenever I walk into a space, those are the colors you need to go to. And those will actually make you always the most relevant. Yeah. If you're worried about that, because it will feel the most, like joyful and accurate, you have the best chance of all your stuff coming together. Instead of picking random things, hoping you're on trend 

Alice: And it makes you smile. That's like the best feeling like walking into your space and like, it, it actually lifts you up. Like you just feel different when you enter spaces that you really love. And it's just like walking into a hotel that you're like, oh my God, this is so nice. But you can do the same in your own home. Like after I painted that wall, I actually love it. It's a space that I spent a lot of time in, but I, I love looking at that wall cause it just looks so cool. 

Shannon: Yeah. And I think that's the thing is like, instead of worrying about having to make all those decisions, whether you're looking to sell your house or moving into a house or you're living in your house, it doesn't, this doesn't matter when you're in your space, instead of worrying about what are the trends, what don't I know, how do I figure out where to go Like if you just start with, how do I want to feel in this space What am I going to do in this space How do I like to operate Do I like to feel loungey or do I need to feel structured and scheduled Like how, what is, how do you live really That if you start from there that immediately starts giving you answers. You know, that it's like, oh, well this has to be my office because the light's beautiful and I'm here all day. 

Shannon: All right. If the light is beautiful and I feel good when I'm here, then how do I need to move in my space A corner desk would help me have a computer and a place to sketch or whatever the case may be. But if you just like walking through the ideas of how you live, you can make every decision. I love that. Yeah. I also think, and I know, you know this from a lot of renovating that everything is a learning process and none of us were good at what we do know when we first started and well 

Shannon: If you've never renovated a house before. If you've never bought a house before, if you've never painted a room before, of course, you're going to feel scared and overwhelmed.

Shannon: Imitating. But once you make those decisions and let yourself learn from it, instead of feeling like, oh, I really blew that. I didn't want to mistake. And I messed it up. If you say, oh, now I get it. This is why ceilings are a lighter color or, oh, now I know why you use semi-gloss instead of flat. Okay, next time. Or can I fix it now Like you don't have to look at it with curiosity and with the same process that you do, whether you're an athlete or a scientist, you, learn as you go and the more you do it, the better you'll get? If you're only going to do it once, then keep to your instincts and ask the experts. Don't ask too many experts. Won't ask your family. We don't need to take a survey, no surveys allowed in this, you know, two people tops, that's it. After that, you're done and make your decision 

Alice: Move on, right Yeah. One of the things you touched on that I want to talk about. So, let's, let's start with some basics, but I do want to talk about the color of the year. There are different sheens for different applications throughout the home. So for the people who don't know, what are the general rules for the, you know, when do you use flat paint when to you use some, I was once you use, you know, eggshell, et cetera, et cetera. 

Shannon: She really has two functions. The very first function is function. Like if you, the more sheen of paint has in it, the less porous it is. And the poorest it is, the more durable it is. So if you think about it like this, if you have a flat wall, we've all done this, you have flat walls in your house and you walk by after you've like washed something in the sink and maybe a little oil or food or water splashes on the paint and it's soaked in and you can't get it out. That's because flat paint is porous and there it's just the paint itself. There's nothing protective in it. The beauty of a flat pane is you could paint over it and it disappears. But the challenge is that you can't really clean it. You can't wash it. So from a pure function standpoint, that's actually why baseboards and crown molding and doors are in a sheen like a satin semi-gloss gloss. If you try to paint your baseboards in flat paint and then dust them six months there, you can, the dirt just sticks, settle into the pay. You can't get it off. 

Alice: I see that all the time, people who just run the same sheen of paint all the way down from feeling, and then, yeah, it's not serving any purpose, 

Shannon: So work. So, and that's true for the outside as well. So that's why when you go into a kitchen or a bathroom, you're often going to see the sheen on the walls because especially in those rooms, you're dealing with moisture, high traffic, small areas, messy hands, you know, those rooms require more wipe ability than maybe a living room or an office. what's kind of nice about these days though, is that paint is so much more like specifically formulated these days, you know, it used to be, you had interior or exterior, and then you had like a flat semi-gloss gloss. That was it. Now we have ceiling paints, we have built-in cabinet paint. We have, you know, paint for specific areas. So you could actually have spaces like a living room, an office, a family room where you use a matte finish on the walls. 

Shannon: And by doing that, you get just a little touch of that wipe ability. So it's more durable. So you don't freak out when your kids are jumping on the couch and hands are going on the wall, but you still get the, the quietness, a flat paint. It, it just, the more sheen you have, the more reflective your surface is because the less porous it is. So also the more flaws that show, and I can give you like a really quick, good examples. Like I said, these walls are, of course, now the light comes through.

Shannon: These walls are cinderblock, they're very textured. Yes. So I actually chose the one true flat paint that Kelly Moore makes. It's just the premium professional. It's kind of our basis, basic workhorse pain. It's a true flat. And I did that because I love the texture of the walls. But if I had done anything from Matt took the loss, you would see it even more. And then it would look like I was in an institution. Right, right. So that's a perfect example of like the function is to make things more durable, more cleanable, but then the aesthetic side, which is the other kind of function of gloss and sheen is what will make it the most beautiful for you. 

Alice: Right. Got it. so just as a general rule, like I always tell my clients that you, for your major living spaces, especially if you have children, eggshell is the go-to finish for your basic spaces, your living rooms, your bedrooms, et cetera, et cetera. ceilings are generally, always flat. and for your baseboards, all your millwork or your doors, your trim, things like that, are in a semi-gloss. If some people want a high gloss, you can do that. I, I generally use semi-gloss for most residential projects. for me personally, because I don't like the high sheen when it comes to the kitchen and the bathrooms, I choose the set in for my clients. 

Shannon: Yeah. I agree. And I do sat in for a lot of baseboards and doors and things like that too because depending on the space, you know, we kind of went through this phase where all doors and trim and crown and ceilings were white, but not all doors are beautiful. You know, all trim and crown molding and baseboards are beautiful, and not all rooms are giant and spacious. So sometimes choosing a lower shame, excuse me, on those elements, actually, orphans that look so you walk into a room and you don't see a shiny door, you just see a beautiful space. And one thing that you can do then paints the walls, the doors, the trim, all the same color, but choose the right sheens for each of those elements. And that was to your point too. Like some people will go ahead and just paint the baseboards with the same flat paint that's on the walls, go ahead and use the same color. It makes the wall tolerant cleaner, but do the right sheen so that it performs. 

Alice: Let's talk about another issue that I see a lot of and a big mistake is when people do touch up paint. Yes. And they choose the wrong sheen. So, then you end up with a lot of you can, if you're in a bigger, gosh, I, and it drives me crazy. Even like where my dad lives in the hallway, whoever is building painted over the existing paint with similar color paint, but it's clearly the wrong sheen. So you've got these patches all. So the walls look like they have a skin condition. 

Shannon: Little nail hole is like now a big job. 

Alice: It's terrible. I made a similar mistake, so I want to talk about like touch-up paint because that's a big thing that people think like, oh, I don't have to repaint the whole house. I'll just do some touch-up and I'll tell you throughout my house, I have Malibu beige. Oh yeah. But it's been on there for a couple of years. And then I went and got a can of fresh Malibu paint and did some touch-up. Not the same. So can you speak to that a little bit and why that happens 

Shannon: Yeah. I can't a of things happen. first of all, a pink company within itself, which we actually did recently, may have to reformulate their tinting machines. so for example, like when the laws changed and everything in paint had to be low VOC, right So low odor, healthier, paint, we had to choose new pigments to make our paint. So we had to reformulate everything. And of course, like every paint brand does everything they can to be as accurate as possible. But you're going to have these little shifts and changes. You also have one person making your paint in one store one day, and then five years later, another person in another store making your paint another day. And even though most of it is very automated. Now you just are always going to have a little human error that could happen. 

Shannon: So that's one piece of it. Colors literally do change in how they're formulated over time. and then the second one is they change over time inside your space too. So if you have a really bright wall and you get a lot of sun, that wall color is going to change at some point. So like you said, like coming in with a fresh version of the same color might not be right. and then the last thing is like the sheen. So if you're, if you have a different sheen, it's going to show no matter what. Yeah. it's another reason why I really, I know I'm kind of, old-school on this. I really still like flat paint because when you paint over any touch-ups flat over flat, it goes away. Hmm. So it's something to consider depending on what your situation is. Right. the other thing that would happen is like if you let's say you're going to fill a nail hole, you're moving some art where you're taking down a shelf and you're filling some holes in and you do some spackle. 

Shannon: First of all, you've got to sand it. People hate to take the steps, but you've got to just sand it. So it's a little more flush while the most important part of every project. Yeah, exactly. And then what a lot of people don't do is they don't prime that spackle once it's dry. And so spackle is also very porous. And so your paint will soak into that little spot as faculty differently than it will the wall around it. That's probably been painted several times. So you want to prime just, I just take these little mini rollers and I just roll over the hole and kind of feather it out with primer. And by using a little roller, you're kind of recreating the texture of a rolled wall, right. Instead of brush strokes, which a lot of people also do. So roll a little primer on it, then with a little roller, apply your paint. That gives you the best chance at truly having it go away. but sometimes when you have, well, mostly when you have sheen, because it is reflective. If you, even, if you did an eggshell paint to first something up on an eggshell wall, you can still get what we call flashing, you know, like at a certain angle. Yeah. Not straight on, but sideways. You're like, that's the hole right there. sometimes you just have to paint the whole wall. 

Shannon: Not the whole room, but the whole wall. 

Shannon: And it's worth it to get rid of that annoying kind of glare mark that comes from just sheen on sheen, you know, going on at two separate times if that. Right. Right, right. Right. 

Alice: No, totally makes sense. So now, when would you say it would be necessary to prime A space, two questions. When do you think it's necessary to prime a space before you paint And then what are your thoughts on this whole, you know, cause everybody loves to skip a step. So paint and primer all in one opportunity. 

Shannon: Okay. So I think you generally want to prime in a couple of situations. One is, if you do have sheen, you have to prime. Okay. So anything over Matt, if you have satin semi-gloss gloss and you want to change that color, or even repaint it in the same color, you have to prime. It it's a non porous surface now. So it doesn't want to hold things. Right. And so it, you just have to, okay. And then if you don't and you never touch it, you'd be fine. But if you're changing a doorway and then people walk through it all day, it's going to scuff up people, paint cabinets. They don't sand them in prime on first. And then they can't figure out why it comes off where the handles are. That's why you have to create a surface like for the paint to stick to. So that's one situation and that's walls. Like if you're painting your bathroom, your kitchen, that if that's sat in or above, you know, you got to prime that before you paint it for the best results and the other time to prime, it would be if you're really changing a dramatic to a dramatic color. So if you're going from, you know, a tan wall to a red wall or a red wall to a white wall, it, it just really helps block out the previous color. 

Alice: Otherwise you're not going to get a true result with the new color that you're getting. It's going to be a combination of the two. 

Shannon: Yeah. And some colors just naturally the pigments that it takes to make a color, some cover better than others, you know, red walls. Kevy is beautiful, but I've seen people do six, seven coats and it still isn't quite totally covered and beautiful and rich, like you want it to be other colors like Malibu beige, like complex colors. They cover. Great. Yeah. You know, so you might have to prime just to block out the red wall that you coded seven times right. First, and then put on whatever color you want. So that intense red isn't coming through the new color. Right. 

Alice: And then anytime anybody wants to go with those deep, rich colors, just know you're going to have to do multiple codes because the worst ones are the ones that want the color, but they're not willing to do the multiple coats. And they use the haze of the different, you know, like the roller strokes and all that coming through. And it just looks awful. 

Shannon: Yeah. Then you're disappointed. You did a lot of work to get that far, but you're disappointed because it's not beautiful. 

Alice: So I'm one of the anal ones that go there. And I'm like with a little brush and I'm, you know, stippling into the little nooks and crannies because I could still see it a little bit of it coming through. 

Shannon: Yeah. Recently did a shoot, with this awesome photographer, Rob roadman. And I just wanted to shoot a couple of things in our colors, these colors of the year. So it was last year, it was like tropical for us, this beautiful green. And I had a painter come in and paint this wall before I started styling it. And when I, and he said he could do it, you know, like, and half a day or whatever. And I was like, I don't know. That's why with like a dark green turn off when I came in, it was like not solid. Yeah. And it was funny because I felt really pressured. I didn't want to waste the photographer's time. but I could obviously see the paint wasn't solid. And I was like, I asked the photographer, I see this is me being like a little bit lazy in my way. 

Shannon: I was like, can you hide that in the photography Like, can we touch that up And he just looks at me like, I'm not asking you 

Shannon: Skip steps on your job. Let's me to fix this with my job. 

Alice: Yeah. 

Shannon: He, I love him. I absolutely like, he's great, but that's the truth, you know, it's like I had to get out a can of paint. I had to roll it on while he set up his lights and his lights are so warm. It heated, you know, it dried it very quickly and it looked beautiful and it was worth that extra step, over the embarrassment of being a painter who didn't paint the walls. Well, yeah. You know, well, 

Alice: Unfortunately you did hire that part out and that wasn't done to the extent you could have been, but oh, well that's a whole nother story. 

Shannon: It is the learning curve, you know, I did it too last minute. Like it's the learning curve. You, you have to take responsibility for the decisions that you make and then do what you can to make them. If you need to. 

Alice: So let's talk about colors of the year, because I, you were saying that you're in these groups. I just think this is so interesting. It's kind of like the people who do nail color, who, who, you know, are you guys just sitting in a room, brings dorming names like that It's so interesting to me, but so tell me how the collaborative comes up with what the colors of the years are going to be in. You know, each paint company has their own, so how does that come about.

Shannon: Yeah. I find it really a fascinating process. I kind of go back and forth between enjoying it and not enjoying it only from the standpoint of like, there are so many colors than ideas that emerge at any given time, you know And, there, there's never one color of the year. There's like 50. Yeah. There are just different colors that you start to see more and more. what I think is really fascinating is trying to figure out based on the colors you're seeing now, where they go to after this, because, you know, it's like any sort of collective conscious thing you let, let's say, everyone just starts painting their walls, dark green, and everyone loves it. And everyone promotes it. It's an all the catalogs, but then people will start to have reactions to the green itself. Right. So there'll be like, you know, I don't want a darkroom anymore. 

Shannon: I'm tired of this dark room or they'll be like, I feel too cold on this screen. I want something brighter. Or they'll say, I love green. This is awesome. But I just won't change. So maybe just a lighter green would make me happy. There's a human response to everything. And so, I mean, you know, in design movements, fashion movements, art movements, there's always going to be this thing. That's kind of the Zeit Geist, right. And then someone who's going to backlash against it and be like, no more white walls. I'm sick of them. All my walls are black or I'm tired of short skirts. We're going to the ankle. Yeah. You know, there's always this, like, we're tired of looking at this. I mean, look, houses were black a couple of years ago for about three, four years. People were painting their houses black. And it was very sophisticated and chic what our house is now, white. 

Shannon: Now everyone's paying their house is white. And some people are painting a white with black windows. Yeah. You know, it's this dramatic shift. So that happens. And then you also have these colors that come out of somewhere. It could come out of, like travels and import and culture and things like that. And so maybe you see this beautiful, you know, blue vase and you think I want the vase, but I could never put that blue on my wall. Right. It's like the thing itself is so beautiful. And that's a very popular item that comes into our consciousness. And then you start thinking, you know, my wall could be that color. I love it so much. I could live in it. It would make me really happy. And so you see these kinds of what I call impact colors. Like these accent colors that just brighten your whole room with a little object, a chair or whatever. And that starts to expand.

Shannon: So that's what we're seeing with this yellow, that, just before the pandemic, like the year before that we had called out, Sungod this beautiful, slightly greenish-yellow as our color of the year, because I didn't necessarily see it in a lot of paint yet. I saw it in pillows. I saw it on stool legs. I saw it on fabrics. I saw it everywhere. Then I started to see it on kitchen cabinets, backsplashes tiles. I started to see it. And it was like, oh, people are seeing that this is a burst really of personality. Yeah. It's speaking up. But you know, there's white walls, there's beige. And then you could put a little yellow pillow in there and feel super happy. And then you start to go. I could make my accent wall yellow. And then, you know, so now we're starting to see, I think yellow coming out of the pandemic. It's like here comes the sun. Literally people are feeling, I think more hopeful than they have for a long time. the earth is literally heating up. So we're seeing a lot more warm colors, a lot more sun. so, and I'm not saying that I'm not announcing here. 

Shannon: That's the other point. That's the other thing, Alice, that kind of like, it makes me crazy in a good way. It's like, what is the trend now And what is that going to be You know So you have to kind of predict, like, I'm starting to see this yellow now, but is it going to be even more popular next year Or is there another color that's like a burst color right now that will start to grow. So I'm kind of seeing like, lavender's having, starting to have a moment and, like a color that it's like, you know, the color and orchids, it's like a purpley color, but it's slightly too kind of a junk fish. 

Shannon: Yeah. It's kind of agenda. It sits kind of between purple and red. But it definitely leans towards that purpley side, starting to see little pieces of that. And orchids are becoming really popular, literal flower references are happening, which was more of a vague thing before. So those are colors. I'm kind of looking at it.

Alice: Yeah. So I mean the color of the year, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to put it on your walls. I think that's what people really need to understand is it's not a, just because the paint companies come out with these colors doesn't mean, this is what you should start rolling on. Your walls are colors that they're. And you know, I don't know. I feel like it's all subjective. And really, if he moves subscribed to that color, you don't have to incorporate that color. It's not because it's the thing that you need to do that you need to incorporate it. But like you said, you can incorporate it into decorative accents throughout your house in smaller ways that can be then changed out easily if you don't want to have to repaint your entire wall. 

Shannon: Yeah, exactly. I think they're really a point of inspiration and fun. That's what they are. And definitely, experts are working on it. It's not like it's, it's a serious endeavor, 

Shannon: But it is for people to have fun and be inspired. If you see, you know, a color of the year, like Tangerine is another color. People are really starting to look at you, happy, go buy a pillow now. And if you consider it for your kitchen or consider it for your bedroom, go big with it if you want. But it's the idea is really to inspire people. 

Alice: And I aspire to be one of those people that change out all of their decors on a seasonal basis. I'm like, who has time for that I have it, but like I never ever quite get to that point. 

Shannon: No, I know I changed my, my bedspread and my living room pillows. That's it. That's what I changed for the S for the seasons, but not for the holidays. Yeah. All the winter, you get the dark summer spring. 

Alice: The luck and you're winning at that point. Well, and I love like yellow and orange and all those colors are very happy colors. They're very uplifting. And I associate that with the spring and the summer. And I, and I love that palette. am I going to paint a wall Yellow No, because that's not me? It's not my personality. It's not what I gravitate towards. Right. but I've had clients who love there's Mo I would say the majority of the people are afraid of color. And then you've got the rare few that are like, I want to do all kinds of things, you know, more, but then I also have to help tone it down because, you know, at some point it's not practical. Right. Right. You know, if you're living in there and you love it by all means, do whatever the heck you want. You know, when it's time to sell, you might have to change things up a little bit to be more marketing. 

Shannon: Right. And really you're just creating, you know, I think sometimes people kind of hold on to it, but this was my house. We loved this room. But once you go into moving mode, you're really creating a new beginning for someone else. It's time just to add their story to your story. You can't continue your story when you're not there anymore. So it doesn't mean that what you had was bad or old or embarrassing, it means it's a new time. Right That's, 

Alice: You're sometimes you're painting spaces because it goes with some artwork that you love and that's complementary to your artwork. Once you move out of space and you take that with you, it needs to be a new backdrop for the next person. Right. So let's talk about this whole gray movement that has like, you know, just kind of been embraced. And you've got the people who are just so sick and tired of gray. Like, I don't want to see another gray ever again, but we were prior to gray, there was the beach movement like Spanish sand was my go-to color for a million years. And then it moved into the gray area. Are we moving away from that? Are you seeing that trend? 

Shannon: It's funny certain colors do just stay around for a long time. Certain neutrals, grays, I don't know if they were totally going away, but colors were starting to warm up before the pandemic. I think the pandemic, like a lot of things, pushes color forward. And so we're seeing grays becoming a lot warmer. It kind of surprised me because it's kind of going back very quickly to like the grayish, like a graze, have a little brown in them. And they're a little more, I always say purple, which isn't quite right, but they have like red and, so they, they start to look more like a beige tone or a topi. I real topi tone. and I think we're segwaying into another round of brown. Honestly. I think that's coming. 

Alice: I love brown. I think it's very rich. yeah. And it it's, you, you still have, I dunno, there are so many colors that I just thought, oh, I can see that it's not so out of the, it's not so crazy that you can't embrace it. And I think people just need to see it. And, when they see it and they see the application and how that translates to an entire space and how furnishings and accessories build that color up, it could be amazing. Amazing. 

Shannon: And I think instead of worrying about if this gray is perfectly neutral, which we worry about, and there's no neutral gray, great is always more one color than another, you know so I think more like you're saying of like, what is the gray that looks best for this space So I do want a neutral, I still have to look at, is it a blue, gray, is it a green, gray, red, gray, like where, is it and choose a color that looks great for that space. One of the other colors I see coming that, I really like, and it's kind of a shift is the grays that go towards the putty. So going a little greener, going a little more like a raw clay color. And they feel like gardening to me, they feel warm in a different way. Again, they do go a little browner, but don't worry gray for gray sake, pick it as a neutral, and then go in the direction that feels right for the space. 

Alice: Got it. So one of the things that I see in every household and you've probably seen it yourself, is this inventory of leftover paint, previous owners from your own projects, how long this paint actually last, what, is there an expiration date on paint. 

Shannon: You know, that's a really good question. It, it really depends on a lot of things like the heat and the cold where the paint is just like wine or anything else. Well expire faster in a hot environment, right How well are the C R is the lid sealed People just pour their paint right out of a cannon. And then they stick the lid right on it. You don't have a clear seal anymore. so a lot of those variables happen to, is there moisture getting in Cause you don't have a solid seal as your can not close properly or whatever. so I don't think there's a specific expiration date, but I understand the collecting of pain garage I used to do for my color consulting clients is we would go through the house and see what we were going to change, what we were going to touch up or whatever. 

Shannon: Then we'd go in the garage and pull out any paint cans that don't pertain to that house anymore. Pull those out. And then whatever we had left, if it wasn't like more than, I'd say like four years old, four or five years old, I might what you call box that paint. So poor. Some of what's left of that paint into a new gallon and use it because it just helps with consistency. and you use up the old paint in the new, on the surface, on the, you know, you use it up. Okay. using the same color. Yeah. Reuse it in color. If it smells at all, like not like new paint anymore, it's not good. The ingredients have expired. Right. but then what I like to do is make a chart where every room, you just write down the surfaces, the color of the sheen so that you can always go out to the garage and find that can.

Shannon: More likely to match than going and buying a new Canon of the same color. So it's valuable to keep them there. But after a certain point, they do expire. And if you don't keep track of what color goes, where you 

Alice: Just build a big guessing game. And like you said, people are just reusing you reusing using the same can and you know, there's drippage along the sides and all, and it, you can't, it's tripped over the color. You can't, it's a mystery that no longer as, you know, readable 

Alice: Cause there are things that I do with my clients too, to make it easy. I, like you said, I create the color chart so that they have an easy reference. I pour left. So instead of keeping gallons and five-gallon buckets, you know, cause there could be multiple sizes that you have all over the place. I keep a small, I get the quart cans, I get them from Kelly Moore work hands. And I just pour enough in there that there is enough touch-up and I, you know, mark exactly what paint is for what room. So it's easy, you're conserving space and you know exactly what it is that you have. Yeah. I know Kelly Moore w cause I take advantage of it all the time has a recycling program. Can you tell us a little bit about that 

Shannon: Yeah. They're actually part of a nonprofit recycling program that a lot of paint manufacturers are part of called paint care.org. And so basically 

Shannon: You kind of paid to be a member of this group and then you agree to accept paint for recycling. So Kelly Moore takes paint. 

Shannon: I believe the difference in different areas. You can bring it any day, but the paint gets picked up once a week from these various stores by pink care. And I believe you you'd have to check me, but I believe you could bring up to five gallons of left, like five-gallon . Yank, to recycle. And the nice thing about that is it does get your paints out of the garage. It does. I know that there are recycled paints that are being used, like institutionally, so the paint can get reused, and often those colors will be kind of gray or neutral because you're just pouring all the colors together. straining it for like, you know, rusty edges and toxins and like elements from rollers and you know, you're filtering it and then you can use it again in a lot of applications. It just is generally a neutral. 

Alice: Oh, okay. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't even really think about what they do actually, after they collect all the paint, because you could like get all kinds of funky stuff, you can get brand new stuff. They're really old stuff. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Alice: So that's great. Yeah. My experience has been call beforehand because sometimes they don't have the room to take your paints because they take in whatever. they're allowed to take for that week and before the pickup, I think things are changing a little bit. Cause during the pandemic, things were a little bit slowed down, but I would bring my paint over there and, they would put it in this big box and I would just go on my Merry way. Then I feel good that I've, you know, gotten rid of paint for my clients. And it's amazing. 

Alice: Waste management. 

Shannon: A lot of those centers don't take paint anymore. So you have to find a place for them to go. 

Alice: Yes. I would definitely call I've had an experience where I have brought paint to the waste management companies. They have a hazmat, division where they will accept certain paints. and they're a little less strict than some of the pink companies. Cause I know sometimes the paint companies won't take it. If you do not leave your paint outdoors, people leave their pink cans, outdoors, they get rusted through and, and it's a mess. Yeah. Yeah. So the best thing you can do is if I can go into this conversation another time, but like there's a protocol for how the story or paint in the proper manner so that you don't end up creating more waste for the rest of the world. those rusty pink cans are not acceptable to a lot of places. 

Shannon: Right No, they're not. They're hard to recycle. 

Alice: Wow. We have heard so much. This is awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of this in light of everything that we discussed. What is your best advice for people when it comes to painting Because it is so transformative, I think in so many ways, and it can go in so many different directions. 

Shannon: My best advice is first just take a deep breath and try not to let it overwhelm you. try to see it as a learning process and really think before you, yes. Look at magazines, look at Instagram, get inspired. Absolutely. If there are colors that you keep gravitating towards, you should consider those seriously, and really embrace that. And then really think about how you want to feel in your space. That's really where I would start it. It calms you down immediately because it immediately tunes you in with what you actually want. so that'd be my first bit of advice. Get inspiration, go-to colors that you were already drawn to, and really think about how you want to feel in a space and what colors make you feel that way. And then my second advice, we made fun of it earlier, but truly you don't need to ask 20 people for their opinion. 

Shannon: They don't live there. You do. And even I say that as a color consultant. If, if a client is struggling between two colors, all say, look, I love this color, but I don't live here. If its color speaks to you more then this is the right color for you and you should have it and I want you to have it. So really you don't need a bunch of opinions. You need to like staying here. The painter can give you his advice on the, and maybe on how the color might perform. The people who live in the space can tell you what they like and maybe a confidant who supports you. 

Alice: And also remember when you're comparing two colors, you're not going to have them side by side later on. So just pick one, it's not going to, you're not going to look at it later and go, I want that one. You know, when you're choosing over the side by side you're that's when you start getting really indecisive. And that, that actually leads me to another question. What are your thoughts on the people who put paint swatches all quarter room? 

Shannon: I was just going to say that you, you brought up my answer perfectly. Yeah, I that's the other thing is that when you're looking at it too closely, 

Shannon: You're never going to experience the color like that. Again, you're going to experience it like this, you know, out where you're living in it and other things it's like, it's like noise. You know, you, you let yourself tune certain things out and you hear what's important to you. And this, these walls are the same. They'll start to move back. And it's like the sofa and the lighting and the kids' toys and that stuff. That is the more important stuff. So yeah, I would say, first of all, when you do those color samples, make them big, a little tiny brushstroke will not tell you anything, make it big. Like mine is two, three feet big rolled on two layers because the other color of the wall is, you know, the old colors can show right. And do it in the areas where you're actually going to put it. 

Shannon: So I never put a thing, alike a square of color in the middle of a wall. I put it by the door trim, or I put it by the piece of art where it's going to go. I put it above the sofa that is staying there, like put it in the areas where you're going to see it most directly relate to the other things in the house. And then again, if you are really like if you're really drawn to blue, you know if you like see blue or baby blue or Navy, but you still know within blue, what you're drawn to pick two or three of that, that color, right. Pick two or three of that color and test that don't go to purple and yellow. And you know what I mean Just sit in the colors you're drawn to. And then what you'll start to see is the difference between those hues of color. So you'll be like, God, I really do love the Navy. This is going to look awesome in my house. I think I like this one because it looks better with the pillows. 

Alice: Okay. One last question. Cause this just popped in my mind cause this is, I'm sure you get this all the time. Also, every designer gets this question all the time. What's the pink color that you painted in that room You know, they're looking at a photo of something that you did or a video of something you did or even online, see it all the time. People just want to know what that pink color is. Understanding the location of that paint, the sunlight, that room receives, you know, we all take pictures and you're like, oh, this is not, that is not what it looks like in person. Right. 

Shannon: You know, the screens changed dramatically. My assistant, you know, we work remotely and my things on my screen looked different than the exact same things on her screen. And we have the same computer as the company, you know, computer and I'll say is the wall on, 

Shannon: Is the wall that you're looking at more peachy and she'll go, no, mine's more red. 

Shannon: It's, there's so many variables. Color is only defined by light and light is everything. So whether it's being hit on a wall from the sun or it's being lit up from behind by a computer, it's completely different. So I think you can use those colors as inspiration. You know, I could say, Alice, I love that color behind you where your TV is. To me, it looks kinda like a slate. Gray might have looked at the lower half. Like it has a little blue in it, but the upper half looks a little bit purply. So I don't know. 

Alice: By Kelly Moore, and that's exactly what I was going for that slick kind of like that dark slate, a hint of blue, but it's almost black when not quite black. 

Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you can use those as inspiration. We try really, really hard to be as accurate as possible. Our little paint chips and the things we put in the brochures we test, you know, like just as early as we can for accuracy, but I can only tell you that this is broken white, broken white in your house. It's going to look totally different than it does in my house. And wrought iron in my house is going to look totally different than it does with me looking at yours on these are screens right now. So use it as inspiration and then look for the colors that make you feel the same as you feel when you see that color that, you know, that catches your eye. 

Alice: I hope everybody gets the freedom to just make decisions and not feel so lucky to get it right from the get-go. And everybody's even that controversy a couple of years ago where, you know what, I don't even remember, you know, do you see blue or do you see green wherever that won 

Shannon: The gold or blue draft.

Alice: See, so it doesn't matter. Just go for it and enjoy it or paint right over it. 

Shannon: Yeah.  Just have fun. We're all color experts in our own internal way. You know what I mean So don't worry about it. Don't worry about the color of the year, unless it's fun for you have fun with it, but really just, I would say, just look for colors that make you feel great. Yeah. Start from there. And every version of that color is going to speak to you and guide you, guide you to what's right for you and your home. 

Alice: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. And where can people find you online? 

Shannon: So you can find, Kelly Moore shop.com. It's new that's our e-commerce site, which is okay. Now, if you go to Kelly moore.com, you can get to the store, you know, you can get to our shop, but Kelly Moore shop.com takes you right to the site where you can buy paints and you can buy paints and brushes and rollers and all that. You can order them to pick up at a store near you and pick the store. And the time you want to go, you can also have those things shipped to you. And I think any orders over a hundred dollars, the shipping's free. so it's a really fun, easy time right now to get paint. oh, you know what I got to show you. I'll send you one of these Alice, okay. This deck, let me see if I can. This deck just came out like two weeks ago. 

Shannon: This is our historic colors deck. And this is a set of colors that, we've had at Kelly Moore for years, but they've really never been shown like this. What I love about we're starting to make fan decks for homeowners. Oh, nice. So the big decks, you know, before they're always for contractors learner could have one too, but they're really for contractors, but I was like, you know what We got to get colors in the hands of people and this in 110 colors. So you could literally choose pink color for every space in your house inside and out with this deck. So you don't need 5,000 colors, just go to these, and then they'll have a historic reference. So you can see like these warm, beautiful browns, but you can see the fun colors that we've seen on Victorians and windows kitchens over the years. So it's kind of your classic colors for more of these fun things to come out. Cause that's what I'm working on. 

Alice: Cool. You have the funniest job.